Retirement Explored with Helene Liatsos

Retirement Explored – with Helena Liatsos

Change and transition have been two things that the world has been forced to embrace in 2020. It was certainly not the kind of change that any of us expected. And this will absolutely be a year we won’t soon forget, but change and transition are just a part of life right? Life’s journey is a constant barrage of twists and turns that force us to adapt and grow. Personally, I think that’s really exciting. And though change can be a source of stress, I revel in discovering what lies ahead. There is a lot of information available online about how to properly plan for retirement as it relates to money, insurance, and legal documents (we covered all of that in our Elder Law series!), but what about preparing for the change mentally? Listen in as this week’s guest weighs in. If you prefer reading, keep scrolling for the full transcript.

My Guest

Helene Liatsos of Retirement Explored joined me for this week’s conversation. Retirement Explored is a blog that chronicles Helene and her husband Zaf’s exploration of the path to retirement. As an entrepreneur, Helene is no stranger to the idea of planning ahead and embracing change as it comes. Last year, Helene and Zaf decided that 2021 would be the year that they retired. And since that date have jumped in with both feet exploring what that will look like. Check the links section below to connect with Helene and her blog.

My Favorite Takeaway

Change is change is change. No matter what stage of life you are in, one thing remains the same; change is uncomfortable! The attitude with which we approach the change is the difference between a good and a bad transition. And finding your joy and purpose is essential. Helene says “You have to have a purpose, you just can’t get up in the morning and think about what you’re going to have for lunch, you have to have a reason to get out of the house to keep your mind and body occupied.”

Links & Related Episodes
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Closed Captioning

Retirement Explored with Helene Liatsos

Sun, 12/13 5:28PM • 32:21


people, retire, retirement, helene, life, planning, blog, agreed, create, husband, aging, business, sister, music, rid, find, enjoy, zest, alzheimer, step


Liz Craven, Helene Liatsos


Liz Craven  00:00

This episode of Sage Aging is brought to you by Polk ElderCare Guide your guide to all things senior care and resources available in both English and Spanish, you can find the guide and much more at


Liz Craven  00:25

Welcome to the Sage Aging podcast. I’m your host Liz Craven. The mission of Sage Aging is to help you connect to information and resources that will empower you to master the aging and caregiving journey. Weekly, I’ll bring you great conversations with industry professionals and others to shed some light on topics of aging and to empower you to take charge of your journey. So grab a cup of coffee, or maybe a cool glass of lemonade, and sit back and relax as we chat. Are you ready? Hit subscribe now and let’s get started.


Liz Craven  01:03

Hello, and welcome to Episode 36 of the Sage Aging podcast. Change and transition have been two things that the world has been forced to embrace in 2020. It was certainly not the kind of change that any of us expected. And this will absolutely be a year we won’t soon forget, but change and transition are just a part of life right? Life’s journey is a constant barrage of twists and turns that force us to adapt and grow. Personally, I think that’s really exciting. And though change can be a source of stress, I revel in discovering what lies ahead. A few episodes back, in episode 33, Richard Haiduck joined me to talk about his new book Shifting Gears and how he and others have embraced their retirement. There’s a lot to think about when considering retirement. If you fail to plan ahead, define what you want, and put the right pieces into place, your vision for your retirement years may fall short. We don’t want that to happen, so let’s talk about it. Joining me today is Helene Liatsos of Retirement Explored. It’s a blog that chronicles Helene and her husband Zaf’s exploration of the path to retirement as an entrepreneur Helene is no stranger to the idea of planning ahead and embracing change as it comes. Last year, Helene and Zaf decided that 2021 would be the year that they retired. And since that date have jumped in with both feet exploring what that will look like. I’m thrilled to share Helene with you today, so let’s jump in. Welcome to the show. Helene and thank you so much for joining me today.


Helene Liatsos  02:51

Yes, hello, thank you for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to speak with you and to your audience. We have a lot to share, and I’m eager to get going.


Liz Craven  03:07

In our pre booking conversation, I walked away thinking, Wow, what a person who has a zest for life. And I just love that about you. So why don’t we start by you just sharing a little bit about yourself with us?


Helene Liatsos  03:22

Well, where to begin? I am living in Los Angeles. I was originally from New York City. I’m a child of immigrants. My parents came from the country of Greece and I grew up immersed in that culture. And I’m bilingual. And I think that culture is known for its zest for life. And those that definitely in my genes. I had two visions when I was growing up that I was going to be an actress. And I was going to be a business owner. And I had enough stamina and get go and what have you to do both. Well, obviously one of them didn’t happen. But I have excelled in business. And I had spent the better part of my life my career in helping people start and operate a business. My niche is a home based businesses I teach online, I do private consultations. And it’s been a joy helping people create an idea or have an idea and make it happen. help them create help them establish. And it’s it’s just been so rewarding to me. And now at the end of the long, I think illustrious career, I’m looking forward to semi retiring, my husband will be retiring completely and I still just can’t let go of helping people. So I’m gonna be semi-retired.


Liz Craven  04:45

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that at all. I kind of see the same for myself. And you know, we have another thing in common. When I was a kid I was certain I was going to be an actress as well. That was it. So your husband is going to retire completely. When does that happen?


Helene Liatsos  05:07

Well, we’re both going to retire, slash semi-retire at the same time. Currently the house is up for sale, one of our businesses is up for sale. We’re looking at, by the end of February 2021, we should be all done. And then we’re going to take off we’re going to go for to Europe, primarily Greece and Italy for about six months. And we are going to enjoy a well-deserved and well-earned six months of doing nothing but traveling. That’s our goal.


Liz Craven  05:43

Wow, that is so exciting and I am so jealous.


Helene Liatsos  05:48

Your time will come.


Liz Craven  05:50

Yes, it will. I’ve got a few years yet. I I’m 53. And my husband is 55. And, you know, like you, when you start to think about what comes next, you start to visualize and start to put those pieces in place and plan ahead to make sure that your own vision of your retirement can actually become a reality. Because without the planning part, I’m not sure that it ever happens the way that you want it to.


Helene Liatsos  06:17

Agreed. And I’ve used that in my business all these decades. This is the planning is this thinking things through. And I always start with, if you had a magic wand, what would you create. And that applies to a business, a dinner party, a retirement plan, whatever it is that you’re hoping to achieve, you have to have a plan, you have to think things through. And this this issue of a vision is very interesting and very complicated at times, because my vision at the very beginning was a little bit different than my husband’s. His was, you know, golf and enjoying long lunches and this type of thing. And I finally, after all this time have conveyed this message with success, that you have to have a purpose, you just can’t get up in the morning and think about what you’re going to have for lunch, you have to have a reason to get out of the house to keep your mind and body occupied. And I had seen this so many times with people who retire. And granted some of these people didn’t plan on retiring retirement kind of happen to them, loss of business, loss of a spouse, etc. So they are very melancholy. They don’t have they don’t have to get up and go to do something for themselves. Because they didn’t plan. They didn’t have a hobby. They didn’t have an interest. They’re not readers, they’re not walkers. And it’s very sad to see that.


Liz Craven  07:57

So what advice would you give to somebody who is faced with a sudden retirement? How do they begin? If they didn’t plan ahead and didn’t put the pieces in place, How can they achieve that?


Helene Liatsos  08:09

Well, unfortunately, we’re living under a time where you really can’t get up and go, my sister told me yesterday that she meets a friend of hers, they’ve been meeting twice a week for coffee for the last five years. And she told me yesterday that they met up for coffee. And basically they bought their coffee and walked out of the store and sat in their car, because there’s no place to go with this lockdown that we have here in Southern California. So at this time, it’s a little bit different, difficult. But overall, in normal times, if you will, I think it’s the start slowly to the to adapt emotionally, mentally, spiritually, that that phase of your life is over. And that is good news. Because that leaves you with a new face to take over. And sometimes we have to think deep down inside, we have to reach all the way back probably to our childhood and say, Oh, you know, I used to have an interest in collecting stamps, or doing my genealogy and finding that little seed of interest that you might have had and perhaps put on the back burner because you were busy living life and bring it forward, you know, start watering it and start and you know, with the advent of the internet, my goodness, everything is is available to us right there on the computer. When I stop and think about my parents retiring, again, going back to that zest for life that Greeks are known for. They created an amazing backyard with my mother did the flowers and the plants and my father did the vegetables and the fruits and they had so much that we ended up giving it away to senior citizen homes and people that we knew because that and that was their passion. And that kept them young. So that that was a good thing.


Liz Craven  10:10

That is so cool. You know, I think it’s you that said this, I have this quote written down, and I believe it was your quote, ‘I don’t want to revisit I want to reinvent.’ I love that.


Helene Liatsos  10:23

Yes. It’s part of my blog. It’s a blog that I wrote and I think my opening statement, if I remember correctly, is ‘I want to be retired, but I don’t want to retire.’ And those are two different concepts.


Liz Craven  10:42

Agreed. But I don’t think that most people get that I think it’s all lumped into one. I wonder how many people really understand retirement in general, I think most people see if you say retirement, they think of an age they say, well, that’s 65 that’s when you stop working a job. But I wonder how many people give thought to what comes after what comes next?


Helene Liatsos  11:07

Well, from my experience, I think it’s about 60 No, and 40 Yes. 60%? Don’t think about it and 40% do think about it. I would say that was probably be my percentages of the people that I have spoken with. and I know personally,


Liz Craven  11:27

We’re gonna work hard to shift that, aren’t we?


Helene Liatsos  11:30

Absolutely. And that’s that was that’s the purpose of one of the purposes of my my blog is to inspire others to take charge. This is like a second life, this is a second chance. I love the the postings that I see on social media, of retired people or retirement aged people who are suddenly dressing like they’re Bohemians. Or they can tap dancing or, or they you know, they try different hair color for the first time in 60 years. I love those people, because that you can tell that they have the passion for life, and they’re not giving up.


Liz Craven  12:11

That is so true. So what was your catalyst in starting the blog? Was it after the conversation that you and Zaf had about when you wanted to retire? Or was that did the the idea for the blog and the exploration of that path to retirement come first?


Helene Liatsos  12:27

I think it was after we decided on what we both agreed as the vision of how we’re going to retire where where are we going to go for the first year, that was the first planning that we did. And then we started making lists. Or rather, I should say I started making a list because you know how that goes. of, Okay, so what has to happen, we have to start giving away some of the furniture, we have to start looking for a place that we might want to move to, we have to just do a whole bunch of things, you know, get the house ready for sale, etc. And in that daily activity, I said to myself, Gee, I wonder how many other people are going through this. Because it’s not just getting rid of the furniture and the knickknacks, it’s the emotional aspect of letting go, right? Especially if you have things that were passed down to you by you know, your parents or other relatives that you that you loved. Very, very difficult. And I said, you know, I’m going to blog about this, because if I’m going through this, there must be at least a few people out there that are going through this and I tell you the truth, I have been astounded by the the feedback I got from people who are going through exactly what I’m going through. So from there, I said, Okay, we’re gonna do this, about exploring. But then what happens after we retire, there’s got to be a continuation. And that’s where my travel will be the starting point, the catalyst for that section of the blog, and the journalizing of our retirement travel program. But then, after we come back from our travels, how do we settle into a new place? How do we make new friends how do we find new activities? How do we feel about reaching for something that we gave away and finding out that it’s not there? No more you know, there’s there’s a lot there’s a lot of stuff that we go through as human beings with with changes in our life as as you spoke about it at the beginning of this podcast. So I figured you know what if I’m doing this, other people are going through this, and I wanted to share and also I wanted to journalize my trip for my family to see what what it’s been like as well.


Liz Craven  14:54

I love it. I’ve been browsing through your blog posts and reading some of them and boy Some of them really get you thinking. And one of them that really spoke to me was your post about music. You know, they say that, you know, music is the window to the soul. And as you were cleaning your house and and decided to play some of your music Tell me about that day?


Helene Liatsos  15:20

Well, it was one of those days where you wake up and you just know that nothing is gonna go, right? You just wake up with that kind of that mood or that feeling? And I said, Okay, well, I can. I can spend some time just putting some things away and what have you. And the more I did that, the more melancholy I got. And I did turn on the TV. And at one point, though, somebody was playing some music, I there was a commercial or something. And I said, I’m going to turn on some music. And that was the switchover where I switched from the TV to playing music. And then I thought about the times that I played music, and has completely changed my my outlook in life and my perspective. And of course, different kinds of music creates different kind of moods, which, which I blogged about. And ultimately, my favorite is the one from my own generation, which is that rock and roll beat. I don’t care what anybody says nothing, nothing surpasses that beat. It is the optimal rock and roll.


Liz Craven  16:26

I love it. Were you a dancer when you were younger? Did you enjoy dancing?


Helene Liatsos  16:32

Yes, I certainly did. I started Greek dancing. My mother used to teach my sister and myself had a Greek dance. That was That was my first dancing. And then I went into ballet and tap and modern, all the way through college. And that was part of my grouping under acting, I was going to do musical comedy. And I’ve always enjoyed dancing. And thank God I married somebody who enjoys dancing as well.


Liz Craven  17:02

Oh, that’s great. That’s really great. So as you’ve been going through this planning, and exploration and downsizing and purging and all of that, what what have the realities of that transition been for you that maybe you didn’t expect some of the things that came along that you weren’t planning for?


Helene Liatsos  17:25

Well, I think it’s the first I call the first pass, which is going through the house and absolutely grabbing the things that must go that you had no connection to. And then as I narrowed that down and got rid of the first pass, I started going a little deeper. And that’s that, that was the most difficult part. Because now we’re looking at things again, as they were passed down to me from some family members. And then the realization hit even harder when we went to visit some smaller homes that we were interested in, and driving home realizing I’m never gonna fit all my stuff in there. So you had to dig deeper and get rid of some other stuff and and the outcropping of all of this came to do I really need another dish or another vase that my aunt left me, is that going to help me remember her? And the answer is no, I have enough. And I also have my memories in my heart, in my soul, and in my mind. So that was a huge step, understanding that a tangible item is not going to help me remember her any better or any deeper.


Liz Craven  18:43

Right? I think letting go is probably one of the hardest parts as you begin the downsizing process.


Helene Liatsos  18:50

Yes, yes. And the other part of that is, I’m gonna need it. You know, I may need this in the future. And then you you go through your kitchen and you realize you have 15 bowls, and you only really need three. So you know, getting to that realization that you know what, you can get another bowl for eight bucks at the 99 cent store.


Liz Craven  19:16

It’s kind of like those jeans that sit in the back of the closet that you say you’re going to get into one day but you know that you never ever will. Those days are gone.


Liz Craven  19:26

Yeah, yeah, like go with that stuff and just get rid of it. Yeah, I remember vividly in my generation, and I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, where you had two sets of sizes, you know, you had kind of like your center side and then your heavier side and you were standing both in case your waist fluctuated. And then you get to the point in life and you realize my weight is not gonna fluctuate I am what I am.


Helene Liatsos  19:54



Liz Craven  19:56

Purge, get rid of it. And if you need it again, like you said, you can Go out and enjoy shopping for a new one.


Helene Liatsos  20:03

Yeah, absolutely.


Liz Craven  20:05

So along the way, a lot of people as they’re planning for their retirement, they may experience some unexpected transitions in their life, I know your sister is in that group in the loss of her husband. So how do you navigate that, when that happens, you’re thinking that you’re headed in one direction, and all of a sudden, there’s an illness and somebody needs to be cared for? Or somebody suddenly passes. Tell me about that. And how does that fit into this exploration and planning for retirement years?


Helene Liatsos  20:42

Well, I would think the loss of a spouse or the illness of a spouse is probably the most difficult, although monetary reversals is also very difficult. And having experienced firsthand, through my sister, what she went through, I think it’s the same process of, of, you know, I think it’s like four steps, the you know, denial, you know, fight, and you get to find the acceptance. And one of the things that my my niece, told me and my sister told me, with, with my brother in law’s passing, was, I said goodbye to him a long time ago, because he was suffering from dementia, and early stages of Alzheimer’s. So that was very telling to me that they were on the steps to acceptance. But it’s also interesting that it’s lonely, very lonely, because even though when my brother in law was alive, and he was in his illness, my sister spent time alone, there was nobody to talk with, right? You know, I mean, she does have her immediate, her son and his family living in the same property. And my niece is around her, and she’s had dinner with me and my husband twice a week for the last six months. So we’ve all been around her, but ultimately, she wakes up alone, and she goes to bed alone. And that that’s been very, very difficult. And the most you can do is offer support, verbally, and making sure that you’re spending time with them, encouraging them to seek out other people who are, quote, less alone, and creating new new avenues of relationships and conversations and, and if it wasn’t for this darn virus that she’d be a lot more active with with finding other people that couldn’t, you know, share some activities with her. So that was like, the double whammy. She can’t go anywhere.


Liz Craven  22:50

Coronavirus, sure has made everything different. I mean, in so many ways, social isolation is such a huge issue among the older generation, and especially now because they’re vulnerable to this virus and really cannot afford to get out and get in groups like maybe somebody younger who says, Well, if I get it, I’m going to be fine. Which by the way, it just irks me to no end, but that is an attitude. You know, I’m young and I’ll survive this, but people who are vulnerable really cannot afford to do that.


Helene Liatsos  23:23

Yes, agreed, and especially those that are live alone. Mm hmm. Because there’s nobody to take care of them. Right. And there’s a huge there’s a huge population of seniors who live alone. That’s


Liz Craven  23:37

That’s a whole nother conversation, isn’t it?


Helene Liatsos  23:41

Yes. Yes, very much so. And on social media, I see quite often, primarily women say, I’m all alone on the holidays. But I want to wish everybody a happy Thanksgiving. Oh, well, you know, what do you do with that? I mean, how do you help this person? And then you stop and say to yourself, how why she all alone? She has no relatives? She has no friends, no neighbors? So it’s a question that begs to be asked. I think.


Liz Craven  24:16

I agree with that. I agree with that. That and that is something that a lot of larger organizations like the Alzheimer’s Association, like AARP, a lot of local organizations are working really hard to figure out how to move beyond that. Some of them offering electronic devices that would allow for zoom and FaceTime visits with family and friends, some offering virtual support groups where someone can get online and jump into a call or use their phone and jump into a call to at least have some interaction with other people. And I have noticed which is so interesting. Most of the time, I see the groups out of Canada, college students who are creating organizations that will interact, whether it’s via pen pal type of thing, or in person visits or virtual visits with seniors in order to create that intergenerational connection, which I think is really cool. But you’re right, we need to explore that further and make that more commonplace and not kind of the diamond in the rough that sits out there.


Helene Liatsos  25:29

Yes, and all that is great. And then I totally agree with you this is this is amazingly, a positive step in the right direction. However, I can caution that there’s an X amount of people that just don’t do it for whatever reason. Yeah, they just don’t, they don’t want to learn about technology. Again, under normal conditions, they don’t want to drive down to the library and volunteer or to the hospital or wherever. They just kind of wallow in their own loneliness. And that just perpetuates more loneliness and depression. And I know, I know, several people in my immediate community where they would never call me and say, Hey, Helene, let’s go down to the library. They’re having a book sale, and they’re looking for volunteers. She would never do it. But if I called her and said, Let’s go down there, she would do it. So there’s there’s people out there that are not initiators, their followers,


Liz Craven  26:31

Right. Well, I think that’s our call to action. We need to go out those of us who are the initiators, we just need to step out there and take care of it.


Helene Liatsos  26:42

Right, right. Right. And, and I have it on that blog that I wrote about music with all those 45 that I still am hoarding, because we intend to host all these parties. That’s something that I want to do, that’s going to be my initiation in my new community, where I actually can invite people over, you know, with this virus going away sometime soon, and, and initiating people into the world of music and dance, where perhaps they were more isolated. But if it’s like that, that movie, if you build it, they will come. So I’m looking forward to that.


Liz Craven  27:25

Fantastic, you have a lot to look forward to in your retirement. And I love how you’ve embraced the exploration of that, and the planning for that. So another thing that I love is how you are sharing your exploration with others. And I think if I’m not mistaken, I saw that you and Richard, who wrote Shifting Gears, recently teamed up to offer a webinar of some kind, is that right?


Helene Liatsos  27:52

Yes, we did a webinar on how to blog and or write in retirement.


Liz Craven  27:59

That is so exciting, because that’s a really great way for people to be able to enjoy their life as it was. And as it is,


Helene Liatsos  28:10

Yeah, to chronicle it. I know my husband, who’s not a writer, is now looking into I think it’s text, or some kind of service where you can speak your thoughts, and they become texts on your computer again, yeah, technology’s not really my forte. But he’s looking into that, because he’s not a writer, but he wants to record his family’s history. He wants to record his thoughts about retiring and all of that. So there’s a lot of seniors out there, who have amazing stories, I believe that every single human being is a story, their own story, and those of us who chronicle that bring new joy to other people who perhaps will be inspired by by our own writing and saying, you know, I remember I had a great aunt that was a real character, and she was the beginning of our family here in America. And I’m gonna write about that. To me that’s, that’s a blessing.


Liz Craven  29:11

That’s absolutely is it absolutely is. And I think I need to take the time to do the same thing. I’ve never been good at taking pictures and and writing journals and things like that. And I wish as I look back that I had been better at that I kind of carry those memories with me and live in the moment. And there’s value to that as well. But I wish that I had done the other side a little bit better.


Helene Liatsos  29:34

Well, you get better start get getting at it because your time is precious. And it gets it gets worse as you get older. Because you forget we my sister and I we we continually disagree about certain events that happen in our childhood. And then we have to find relatives that could verify one one side of the story over the other If you don’t like the whole family got versation.


Liz Craven  30:05

Great. Well, hey, before we finish up, do you have any sage advice that you would like to impart to our listeners about embracing retirement?


Helene Liatsos  30:16

Yes. It is my motto that I’ve used in my business for over 30 years, when I was helping people, establish a business. And that motto is, love what you do, and live the life you love. And that applies to retirement. If you love what you’re doing. You’re going to live the life of retirement that you love.


Liz Craven  30:44

I think that’s fantastic. You don’t need anything else do you?


Helene Liatsos  30:50

No. You have to enjoy it.


Liz Craven  30:51

Yep. And I think that applies at any age that you are, that is something a motto that, like you said, you can take through your entire life. And if you apply just that to your life, you’ll be doing very well.


Helene Liatsos  31:04

Yes, yes, absolutely.


Liz Craven  31:06

Well, Helene, thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you for inspiring this conversation about what comes with retirement. I just absolutely love your blog and everything you’re doing. And for our listeners, by the way, I’ll make sure that I have all of the links to Helene social media and her blog, so that you can take a look yourself, I highly encourage you to do that because you’re going to enjoy it so much. So thank you so much for joining me today.


Helene Liatsos  31:36

You are quite welcome. It was a pleasure.


Liz Craven  31:39

And thank all of you for listening. I hope this conversation has inspired you to start planning and exploring no matter what age you are. If you’re enjoying the sage aging podcast, I would love it if you would subscribe, follow or leave us a review. And also, as I say every week More importantly, share it with a friend. And if you want to catch up on back episodes or see the blog post for this episode, head over to You’ll find all of that there and a lot more. Thanks for listening, everyone. We’ll talk real soon.

Liz Craven

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As I’ve been preparing to launch this podcast I’ve enjoyed revisiting stages of my own life and reflecting on how this topic became such a passion for me. While I’ve built my career on helping older adults and their families connect to needed education and resources, my connection to the aging and care process goes much deeper.

Some of my earliest childhood memories are of my own multi-generational family living together in one home. I was 4 or 5 when my grandmother moved into our home to help care for my sisters and I while our parents worked. Soon after, her father and grandfather moved in as well. We had 5 generations living under one roof! That was a beautifully chaotic adventure and knowing what I know now, I have so much respect for what my parents and grandmother did.

Fast forward to age 24. Newly married and pregnant with our first child, I spent several months with my in-laws to help care for my husband’s grandmother who had Alzheimer’s. Fast forward again to about 2009 – Wes and I have two teenagers about to head to college and his mother is diagnosed with cancer. Several years later, my mother is diagnosed with cancer. Several years after that Wes’ stepdad is diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease and his father is suffering from severe dementia. You can see where this is going right? For the better part of the last 10 years we have been the caregivers. We see it as an honor and privilege to have been able to do that for our parents.

The key to navigating our later years is being proactive about gathering information before we get there and staying engaged once we do. To be sage is to be wise. There is wisdom in taking the time to ask questions, seek solutions and know your options before the need arises.

Each week we will discuss relevant topics of aging with experts who can help us to understand and be better prepared for aging. We’ll also introduce you to some Sage Agers who are totally owning their journeys through life. No topic will be off limits and we will deliver open and honest conversation meant to educate and empower our listeners. Each episode will also be available in video and blog formats.

Whether you are proactively seeking to broaden your own knowledge, a caregiver for a loved one or a professional working in the aging care industry, this podcast is for you. We hope you will join us as we explore and celebrate Sage Aging.